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What to learn next?

Thread title: What to learn next?
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07-30-2008, 03:10 PM
#11
lamans is offline lamans
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Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
More important than learning everything, is learning it well. I can code in (X)HTML, but I am not good at it since I have not put great time into it. My specialty is PHP and that is all I do. No one will want to hire an average jack of all trades, most worthwhile clients will want someone who is good at what they do.
Quality post. As a client provider i can agree, my saying is "everyone is an expert but nobody is a professional"

07-30-2008, 05:22 PM
#12
Anthillz is offline Anthillz
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I'm new making the jump from frontend (XHTML and CSS) to more backend (ruby on rails, sqlite, etc.)

I hear good things about Python, Django and Drupal. Any thoughts?

08-06-2008, 02:54 AM
#13
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My personal process went like this

HTML > CSS > XHTML > PHP > MySQL > UNIX Command Line > Java > C++

You might consider following after it, but it's all personal opinion to be honest.

11-12-2008, 07:39 AM
#14
trinitybrown is offline trinitybrown
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You can go ahead with PHP using OOPS and learn MySQL also, for tutorials you can visit w3schools.com, it's a good source for both beginners and professionals

12-01-2008, 03:43 PM
#15
andr92 is offline andr92
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Learn c++ for variety

12-17-2008, 08:52 PM
#16
echoSwe is offline echoSwe
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MySQL isn't a programming language. MySQL is an application. It's like saying "learn Microsoft Word" for someone who asks how to learn to spell. MySQL's data manipulation language is called SQL and SQL can be applied across any database such as Oracle, 10g, MSSQL, PostgreSQL or SQLite to name some.

PHP is seriously nothing to learn. There are better tools out there like Ruby on Rails (too many small files) or Django or ASP.Net. ASP 3.0 (what they are talking about here) isn't BEING DEVELOPED, GUYS!!! Come on! What kind of advice are u giving; a language which isn't being maintained since seven years back and forces you to code VBScript?! Seriously.

If you are looking to learn more about designing web sites, I would say you should learn HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0, the news in HTML 5, CSS3 and be a darn good javascript developer.

If you are looking into going seriously into applications on the serverside then PHP honestly doesn't cut it. PHP is a mishmash of hacks in C and so you can see by for example the month of bugs in PHP or the fact that it ties itself so darn hard to a specific database.

For serverside, learn a proper programming language like C#. You could also learn Java, but Java is kind of crap compared to C#. Plus, if you are a freetard, then C# also runs on Linux which is great! For linux dev; Django plus PostgreSQL or if you have both Windows and Linux, I'd go for MS SQL because of it's many features (multiple recordsets and a very good visualizers + integration with LINQ/ADO.Net), on a separate computer from your dev machine. Django also contains an ORM which you will love when you understand what it means. PHP contains... hmm, raw SQL strings and noobs creating sites open for SQL injection by string concatenation. If you are feeling blessed you might even run the XEN kernel or something and then try using that to virtualize Windows Server 2003/2008 for MS SQL Server installation.

If you are going into personal game development, learn C# and use XNA 3 which is free for Visual Studio 2008. It's fun, quick and complete. WPF also gives you native 3d acceleration in desktop applications.

If you are going into professional game development, learn C#, then C++ and DirectX. You can use Visual Studio VC++ for most development, but when you get extremely cryptic error messages, compile using gcc on cygwin, fix the problem, and continue using VC++. Intel's compiler is good too afaik, especially the multithreading one.

If you are going for a headbang against a wall, try make XServer and a window manager on Linux run games properly and learn OpenGL. Of course there are many good games using OpenGL and Linux rocks, right?

Good luck! Let the flames commence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-22EpQOm8c

12-17-2008, 08:57 PM
#17
echoSwe is offline echoSwe
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Originally Posted by lamans View Post

Village Idiot
More important than learning everything, is learning it well. I can code in (X)HTML, but I am not good at it since I have not put great time into it. My specialty is PHP and that is all I do. No one will want to hire an average jack of all trades, most worthwhile clients will want someone who is good at what they do.

Quality post. As a client provider i can agree, my saying is "everyone is an expert but nobody is a professional"Quality post. As a client provider i can agree, my saying is "everyone is an expert but nobody is a professional"
I think it's a rubbish post: PHP is a tiny tiny language out there out of all the possible ones you can learn. You can learn and be excellent at much more than that, so stop trying to justify mediocrity...

12-18-2008, 03:02 AM
#18
Village Genius is offline Village Genius
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Isn't someone a little grumpy today?

I never said to learn one thing and this it for your life, I was saying to be sure to be an expert at what you do before doing to something else. I have since that posted started (and became pretty damn good at .net stuff)

Also, the following are not programming languages:
PHP (scripting language)
ASP (scripting language)
HTML (markup language)
CSS (style data)
Javascript (scripting language)
SQL (application with an advanced querying language).

But for all intents an purposes, we refer to them as programming languages. Yelling at us for SQL not being a programming language is like yelling at someone for referring to a sedan as a car. SQL is for all intents and purposes, a programming language.

Another thing, t-SQL can only in theory be applied to all SQL databases, in practice they must be converted (I had to convert about 200 at work some time ago from MySQL to SQL, don't try and tell me that they are compatible).


Lastly, PHP is a crap language, but it is widely used and lucrative enough if you are a small-time freelancer. It is also one of the easiest and cheapest to start doing professionally.

12-18-2008, 06:52 PM
#19
unclekyky is offline unclekyky
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Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
But for all intents an purposes, we refer to them as programming languages. Yelling at us for SQL not being a programming language is like yelling at someone for referring to a sedan as a car. SQL is for all intents and purposes, a programming language.
Aside from HTML and CSS, we refer to those languages as programming languages because they are programming languages (not just "for all intents and purposes"). Anyone who claims that a scripting languages is not a programming language either has his own arbitrary definition of a programming language (that is probably incorrect) or just doesn't know what he is talking about.

To illustrate my point, let's assume I make a web server in Python and another in C++. Is the Python web server not a program, but for some reason the C++ web server is? A program doesn't need to be in native code (asm/C/C++) or bytecode (Java) to be considered a program.

Some people only consider Turing-complete languages to be programming languages. In this case, SQL wouldn't be considered a programming language. I don't follow this mindset though.

Village Idiot, this isn't an attack on you. I've just seen way to many people propagate false ideas about computer science (such as that an OS is a program...gah). I also agree with you that PHP is a very poor language. IMO it hindered the advancement of web development for quite awhile (hosts wouldn't install PHP 5 because of incompatibilities with software made for PHP 4, inexperienced developers were locked in to using PHP and wouldn't investigate other ways to do things, etc). I'm very glad now (for a few years, actually) that there are viable alternatives to PHP (Ruby, Python, ASP.NET, etc). Like you said, the problem is that PHP is so simple to use out of the box. It is an entirely different situation if you use a PHP framework like Symfony. Life becomes much more bearable then.

PHP Code:
<?php
echo "Hey Mom, I made my first web page!!!1!1!";
?>
The unfortunate irony is that I am a PHP developer. Eight hours a day I sift through code that was written before I even started web development. In fact it is because I have seen the absolute nethermost facets of PHP misuse, I try and help people to not make the same mistakes as those who programmed what I now work on.

Anyway, I'm not sure if the OP is still around, but for those at the stage where you want to learn something new, I have some advice. As a web development language, Perl is dead. It still might be useful to know for system maintainers, though. I'm not sure why the OP felt he even needed to learn it. There are always two languages I recommend people to learn, whether for web development or just general programming. In my opinion Ruby and Python are two of the easiest, most well designed, languages out there. I have never used Django, but I know that Ruby on Rails makes my life as a web developer so much easier (that is, when I am fortunate enough to be able to use it).

As far as web development goes, it is more important to know how the web works than to know a language/framework. It is the same as with general programming. If you know how a computer system works, you can pick the best language for the job, whether that's C or Java or Erlang. If any programming language will work, then you can use the language you are best at. This is the benefit of an agile learner that is not "language locked." The way computers work changes a lot less frequently then the languages that program them.

At my work there are 4 PHP programmers. Two of us also know RoR and one of us is also a Java developer. One individual would probably have a very hard time learning a language other than PHP. We are considering updating are platform to Java. The two of us who know RoR would be able to fairly easily adapt and learn Java. However, the one person who only knows PHP would become almost useless to the company.

What is important is not what languages you know, but what languages/methodologies you are capable of learning.

Considering, however, that this is a community of freelancers, there are a few differences. As a freelancer, you are expected to work on the job (once you get it). You aren't expected or even paid to learn the language/platform that the job requires. For this reason (and in cases like it), it is definitely beneficial to know at least one language/platform well enough to market it as your strong point. Freelancers, unfortunately, don't seem to have the benefit of being paid to learn new and different concepts. I guess it comes with having a heck of a lot more freedom in other areas.

12-18-2008, 08:53 PM
#20
echoSwe is offline echoSwe
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Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
Isn't someone a little grumpy today?
Yes, in fact, I have to do C++ on linux in the kate editor because eclipse gets out of memory exceptions when trying to compile C++ code.


Also, the following are not programming languages:
PHP (scripting language)
ASP (scripting language)
Javascript (scripting language)
Yes they are. Haven't you tried PHP on the CLR for example? Can access any other class in the framework. ASP's VBScript is a programming language. Javascript is a fullfledged programming language as well. http://www.aptana.com/jaxer (one example of it)


HTML (markup language)
CSS (style data)
SQL (application with an advanced querying language).
Never said these were programming languages.


Yelling at us for SQL not being a programming language is like yelling at someone for referring to a sedan as a car. SQL is for all intents and purposes, a programming language.
MySQL isn't. It's an application. Is Visual Studio a programming language? Or PostgreSQL? Recursion panic! I said SQL was a data manipulation language. SQL in a database is also a data specification language and then with stored procedures and flow control constructs it becomes a programming language, as you say.


Another thing, t-SQL can only in theory be applied to all SQL databases, in practice they must be converted (I had to convert about 200 at work some time ago from MySQL to SQL, don't try and tell me that they are compatible).
Yes, there are dialects, but what's your point? I never said they weren't programming languages as much as I never said they were.

SELECT * FROM users;
if users is a table,
works on both PostgreSQL, MySQL and MS SQL as far as I'm concerned. That MySQL has - INNER JOIN t USING `attribute`, while MS SQL would require you to do an explicit - ON t.attribute = t1.attribute doesn't really matter much in my opinion, when we are talking about learning SQL, since MySQL also supports the ON notation which how you learn it initially anyway (unless you talk about theta or equivalence joins an relational algebra, in which case you need the two tuples to be union compatible and then you can simply do a NATURAL JOIN (postgresql can do that)).

As far as I'm concerned, an operating system is a big program. It's run with the same fetch-execute cycle as any other program, besides that the CPU has hooks for virtual memory, interrupts and traps which not normal programs in user space have access to, but only because of the layered security model in operating systems (which if you take an operating system like singularity, doesn't exist, instead they have software isolated processes). Care to tell me why it's not?

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