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Standards & Validity

Thread title: Standards & Validity
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04-27-2005, 10:54 PM
#11
derek lapp is offline derek lapp
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hah. thought i'd do my usual deed of stating the obvious.

in terms of client situations - i'm a designer first, developer second. i code to make the design work, not vice versa like some people do. i stick to the standards because it just makes sense. people don't make software for window 98, they work for what the latest system is. that's how i approach development.

when it can be done in xhtml1.1 i do, when it can't, i drop back to xhtml1.0 transitional since 1.1 and 1.0 strict are pretty much the same when it comes to my hitting problems (if it fails to work in 1.1 it's an alignment issue inherited from the strict doctype).

by default, i work css quicks into my designs for little things to save me trouble and little bandiwith issues, but overall the design controls the coding.

personally, i don't think anyone wil say "i want html 4.1" because it just doesn't make sense. you can do everything in xhtml that html can do, and it's got benefits beyond that. plus, if they know enough about coding to want to specify a certain doctype and language, they shoul know better than to request html 4.1

EDIT: because i design first, develop second, i think validation is completely overrated. yes i think it's helpful, but honestly, it's so easy to fool a validator that it's not reputable.

imageready'd layouts, if you add the doctype and add the /'s (i can't remember does the validator pick up on uppercase tags? if so add change case to my list), can pass through the xhtml validator, but they're nothing close to optimized code w/ 30 spacer.gifs everywhere.

i think standards are good on global level, because it get's everyone working on the same page. it's good to be able to push the bounds everyone in a while, but overall we should all be working with the same kind of thing here. every year car companies make nse models, but tey still retain that basic car shape, where the manufacturer puts their personal touch on it. Ford F 150 vs Model T here. the elements are all the same.

as far as validation goes, i think it's good on a personal level, because in most cases if it passes through, the code works, and usually works in multiple platforms. this isn't the case everytime, but a lot of the time when i run into bugs, it's because i've forgottn to close something.

on a public note, i think it's totally useless. i look @ sites with links that say "valid xhtml and CSS" (yes i did that once) and it looks like it says "look at me i can spell correctly". i don't think it's anything to show off. - i can understand when people put them on portfolios because they're either for a school portfolio - often where the code is marked like in my case, or they're developers and their market cares about that kind of stuff.

04-28-2005, 01:05 AM
#12
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I am both a developer and a designer. I think coding to the standard is very important, but this is more of a personal opinion. We are all here to improve, use the best techniques that are allowed to us. ATM, I don't see a point of coding in XHTML 1.1 because I would rather wait for XHTML 2.0. Between 1.0 and 1.1, there aren't that many differences from one another. The release of 2.0 will be a whole lot better along with CSS 3.0.

04-28-2005, 01:46 AM
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derek lapp is offline derek lapp
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Originally Posted by Legendary
I am both a developer and a designer. I think coding to the standard is very important, but this is more of a personal opinion. We are all here to improve, use the best techniques that are allowed to us. ATM, I don't see a point of coding in XHTML 1.1 because I would rather wait for XHTML 2.0. Between 1.0 and 1.1, there aren't that many differences from one another. The release of 2.0 will be a whole lot better along with CSS 3.0.
there really isn't a diffrence, but some people ar eimpressed because it's 'new'.

04-28-2005, 03:12 AM
#14
Koobi is offline Koobi
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Originally Posted by Anthony
Apparantley CSS designs can be parsed better by browsers?
Depends on the browser. For the web browser, it's more or less the same. For a handheld device or some device for disabled people, tableless layouts will be better...but of course, if you have tabular data you SHOULD USE TABLES. Tables are meant for tabular data, not images.

The most important factor is that search engines parse tableless layouts better. A search engine would parse a table expecting to find tabular data, instead it finds images, that's time wasted.

04-28-2005, 08:21 AM
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Julian is offline Julian
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These are some reasons why you should Validate your code:

1. It Helps Cross-Browser, Cross-Platform and Future Compatibility

Although you may be able to create a web page that appears to work on your favourite browser (whatever that may be), your page may contain HTML errors (or CSS errors) that do not show up with that browser due to an existing quirk or bug. Another person using a different browser that does not share that particular bug will wind up viewing a page that does not show up correctly. It is also possible that later versions of your browser will fix that bug, and your page will be broken when people use the latest incarnation of the browser.

Coding your pages so that it is correct without errors will result in pages that are more likely to work across browsers and platforms (ie, different systems). It is also a form of insurance against future versions of browsers, since all browsers aim towards compliance with the existing HTML and CSS standards.

2. Search Engine Visibility

When there are errors in a web page, browsers typically try to compensate in different ways. Hence some browsers may ignore the broken elements while others make assumptions about what the web designer was trying to achieve. The problem is that when search engines obtain your page and try to parse them for keywords, they will also have to make certain decisions about what to do with the errors. Like browsers, different search engines will probably make different decisions about those errors in the page, resulting in certain parts of your web page (or perhaps even the entire page if your error is early in the page) not being indexed.

The safest way, it is held, is to make sure that your web page validates error-free. That way, there is no dispute about which part of your page should be scanned for keywords and the like.

3. Professionalism

Even if you test your web site with all the various browsers in existence on all the platforms in use (Mac, Linux, Windows, FreeBSD, etc) and find that it works perfectly in all, errors in your site reflect poorly on your skill as a web developer.

The issue is two-fold: firstly, a poorly coded web page reveals that either the web designer does not know his stuff or is a sloppy worker; secondly, it affects his marketability.

04-28-2005, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Julian
while others make assumptions about what the web designer was trying to achieve.

IE is famous for this. The moment it notices that you don't have a doctype (assuming you don't), it will render in Quirks mode, meaning it will try to "fix" your code but more often than not, it does more damage.

04-28-2005, 07:47 PM
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I allways code in XHTML 1.0 and CSS 2, and make sure it's actually valid .

~ Joe

04-28-2005, 09:00 PM
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i have always felt that if it works in all the main browsers then to me it doesn't matter if its 100% valid. . . but maybe thats just me

04-28-2005, 09:22 PM
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i make all my code valid. not only does it make the site more professional, it gives me the piece of mind that it works and always will work as long as the language is supported by browsers.

04-28-2005, 09:54 PM
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derek lapp is offline derek lapp
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it doesn't always work. my pages all validate, but they don't work in opera. i have to fine tune them now.

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