Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt Browser Wars There is a lot of browser information here that is just plain wrong. But since this is not the topic for that I wont try to correct that. Lets stay on topic.

Why don't you comment on it oh great Guru

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt Standards LETS TALK ABOUT THEM!

Yeah. You should. Nah - we've all; been talking about standards. Whether you agree with that or not.

Originally Posted by derek.l you propositions does make the most logical case, but the scenario is twisted. it's not that the standards are being built for the minority browsers, it's the opposite; they're being built to the standards.

It doesn't sound as good though.

Every Browser has its way of Rendering. Firefox has its own special way of Rendering - as its the only one to use the W3 Standards. They do support the new Broswers; the ones just popping up to give Internet Explorer a shot. Every other browser has its systems down and hence its hard to change. Newer systems; smaller systems - can make their's to fit.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt During the netscape IE war IE won. IE has never rendered pages properly. i remember back about 4 years ago i was testing web pages in IE and netscape and they were displaying differently much like the FF vs IE we have today, so it's not like IE's engine just up and started sucking. IE was always bad, there just wasn't anything good to compare it to because netscape wasn't much better at it.

You mean they never rendered the same. Properly is in the opinion of the user - if you really want to go into properly you'd take the most generally accepted rendering principle and you know what you'd find if you did that. You'd get that Internet Explorer renders pages properly - nobody else does and its just cause for Developers to blame their bad coding abilities on.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt for a while no one seemed to care, then all of a sudden web standards became popular the same way using css is or the way 3d abstract crystals were popular in 2001. i don't know what triggered it but in early spring 2003 when i was introduced to the concept of web standards and validation (not tableless coding i got that about 4 months before) nobody i spoke with in the field cared about them. then about 5 months later everybody was bitching and whining about them like some UN protocol.

Fads will go away. While the standards will remain; they will pop in and out all the time. When Version 7 supports the standards nobody will care about standards anymore. They will again be just something that works - yet again thanks to Microsoft just like Plug and Play. When Firefox dies, and becomes just another thing for jokes like Netscape - nobody will even remmember Standards; they will yet again be what Microsoft does right, and everybody wants to somehow beat.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt Mozila hopped on the trend like any good business would and designed a browser meant for developers that followed the guidelines set by the standards everyone was ranting about (not much different from this thread).

Niche Businesses will always be such. Developers only want that they want standards because they don't like Microsoft - it is a well known problem with Developers. For some reason nobody will accept a Standard set down by Microsoft... and yet a bunch of old men who set down the W3, and a bunch of inbred twits who hack in Hooded Jackets who support the old men are brilliant and great and so much better than having Microsoft's Internet Explorer way which everybody has used for half a dozen years without fail There is something seriously up when that happens...

Originally Posted by Salathe Then why on a recent project that I've worked on, utilizing strict XHTML, semantic markup (more or less) and purely CSS for the design (no XHTML hooks), did the pages render properly? With no CSS hacks?...

Because people don't use Strict XHTML. They like to have kack-handed code where they wonder why <BR /> is bringing up a line they don't want there.

Originally Posted by Salathe As for this topic, rather than you guys complaining about not being able to conduct a civilised conversaion, why don't you actually discuss? Right now, it just seems like you guys are holding a pissing contest to fight it out for who knows more about the topic.

Hmmm... a pissing Contest, ey... Sign me up!

Nah; some people's debating Style in here is a little vague. I know mine is a little rusty - I haven't been on a Forum Debating like this for a few months, longer than that since I was on a Forum who's sole purpose was debating. But yeah - telling somebody to back up everything they say is just not eticate. Tell them what to back up - and tell them why you think it needs backing up.