Discuss the use of html elements

Hey!

I've seen many people do some crazy coding(bad) and I don't know if I am doing wrong or they sometimes because it's so many that do the same.

An example:
Why not just write
And many people use javascript + pictures for :hover that easy could have been fixed in css only and they call themself professional.

So what are professional these days when I see of 60% are doing like these examples and there are more but I can start with these.

Best regards,
Marcus

I'm afraid it's something that's not easy to root out: people are forced to use div's so they use it for anything they can think off...

The Javascript thing is from the DreamWeaver era, which created that Javascript code.

Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it... For a novice html user, this will look like normal and good code; of course, if you know what you're doing, you realise there are better ways to handle this.

The same goes for the whole valid xHTML & CSS... It's irrelevant wether it's valid or not, it has to be structured properly aswell.

One reason, which usually isn't a valid excuse, for the first code is when they need two containers around the list items. This could be when they need a rounded-edge container that fits to exactly needed width (left image on div, right image on ul). But I think it's safe to say that only 0.1% of people using that code do that.

Sometimes you need a div around a menu for background effects. Mostly though, its just bad coding.

Why do all these "pros" do half the rubbish they do?

You are doing it right.

Originally Posted by rochow Sometimes you need a div around a menu for background effects. Mostly though, its just bad coding. Why do all these "pros" do half the rubbish they do? You are doing it right.

Negative, all those effects can be done via the UL.

Nice to get some response, we can take another example.

I'v seen ppl adding this to their site to center their page.

Example
Please learn to use margin :=)

I blacklist alot of tags like <span><b><i><u><font> . if I find any of these tags in a code I think its noobish... Anyone feel the same?

Wow, from looking at your site, rochow, you are one ****ing arrogant person. Especially from reading your HTML comments (Q&A). How you get any clients at all is beyond me. Also, in your code, I can see a bunch of unnecessary tags, empty ones, etc. so I don't see why you call yourself 'the best'.

vaLhak: You are wrong about span, in my opinion. There are several places where it is acceptable.

From experience it appears that the 'bad habits' that people pick up with regards to coding HTML documents stems from not appreciating what the markup is all about.

Coming at the HTML from the viewpoint of having a design and making that into a web page lends itself to getting things done via shortcuts (or longcuts!), incorrect tags, structures and patterns, etc. simply to achieve the visual effect intended.

I also think that the whole self-learning aspect through which many people learned to code (myself included) lends itself to picking up habits (good or bad) and sticking with them because they 'just work'.

There are many situations where you may need/want to wrap the UL in it's own div. This can be related to JS, backgrounds, browser issues,

Originally Posted by Jeff Andersen Negative, all those effects can be done via the UL.

That's not really the case. Suppose you need two images (multiple backgrounds has very limited support), or the UL needs to be floated to the right? Or the UL needs a z-index but is absolutely positioned - in this case you'd need the div to apply correct z-indexing to ie6 which ignores z-index on an absolutely positioned element so the z-index must be applied to the parent (in this case the div).

There are always rules, exceptions, and rules with exceptions for the exceptions

Originally Posted by Jeff Andersen Negative, all those effects can be done via the UL.

No, they can't.

I have had many instances where 2 background images were required - 1 got slapped on the <ul> and 1 got put on the <div>