Discuss the use of html elements

Originally Posted by Ian08 I forgot to say that not only people without CSS can understand what the menu stands for, but also screen reader users.

Same still applies.

If people with screenreaders need it, people using normal browsers do also (and vice versa)

Originally Posted by rochow Same still applies. If people with screenreaders need it, people using normal browsers do also (and vice versa)

Sometimes this is purely for screen reader users. Normal people can easily tell which is main navigation.

Originally Posted by Ian08 Sometimes this is purely for screen reader users. Normal people can easily tell which is main navigation.

So can people with screenreaders. "Home, about us, services" is obviously the main menu.

EDIT: They aren't retards. They are just people who can't use a computer "normally" due to a disability. Spelling everything out like they're a 2 year old isn't doing anything but making a mockery of them.

Originally Posted by rochow So can people with screenreaders. "Home, about us, services" is obviously the main menu. EDIT: They aren't retards. They are just people who can't use a computer "normally" due to a disability. Spelling everything out like they're a 2 year old isn't doing anything but making a mockery of them.

Sometimes it is necessary, because not all navigation links has precise name that let screen reader users know what kind of navigation it is. Add a <h3></h3> is clearer and more convenient for them to understand it.

For example, like this site. When the screen reader starts to read "Live Feed, Top Users, Tag Cloud, Tools, Jobs", how does screen reader users know what's this?

If a navigation is not clear to a screen reader, then it won't be particulary clearer to normal viewing, meaning it's a bad design (thinking in terms of usability and intuitiveness)

Originally Posted by Ian08 Sometimes it is necessary, because not all navigation links has precise name that let screen reader users know what kind of navigation it is. Add a <h3></h3> is clearer and more convenient for them to understand it. For example, like this site. When the screen reader starts to read "Live Feed, Top Users, Tag Cloud, Tools, Jobs", how does screen reader users know what's this?

There is no association between those links, so they are obviously a bunch of random links (which all have meaning of course, but don't have a "group" as such). Visually, thats just a bunch of random links too (are you getting the connection? Browsers and screenreaders are the same in this regard).

Originally Posted by Liam If a navigation is not clear to a screen reader, then it won't be particulary clearer to normal viewing, meaning it's a bad design (thinking in terms of usability and intuitiveness)

Exactly Liam.

If someone with a screenreader needs a title, then people using a standard browser need a title too. If the menu is intuitive enough to figure out for a visual person, then someone with a screenreader will pick it up too.

Therefore, if the menu needs a title to explain it, then it should be visible across all browsers. There is no need for any hidden titles.

Originally Posted by Liam If a navigation is not clear to a screen reader, then it won't be particulary clearer to normal viewing, meaning it's a bad design (thinking in terms of usability and intuitiveness)

At least we can know that's a navigation zone with a glance. But screen reader can't, what they hear is links among lots of links on the web page, they don't know which is which.

Originally Posted by rochow There is no association between those links, so they are obviously a bunch of random links (which all have meaning of course, but don't have a "group" as such). Visually, thats just a bunch of random links too (are you getting the connection? Browsers and screenreaders are the same in this regard).

Okay, thank you.