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Standards, use them.

Thread title: Standards, use them.
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03-06-2005, 07:06 AM
#11
eric_bobbitt is offline eric_bobbitt
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  Old

Originally Posted by Legendary
First of all, standards is just a new trend. Before standard, did anyone of you even know what standars is? I doubt it!! You might have heard of it, but using it!! I dunno!!! Plus half of you here don't really even know what W3C means when they say STANDARD!!!! I hate it when people go and preach about web standards after reading through hundred of articles.

Now lets look at the broswers issue. FireFox was design, code, program specifically for web developers. IE was design to improve the usage of their products. Just like Macromedia!! If you look at their products, all of them are closely related.

Now lets look at the date of the release. Since the birth of FireFox, IE has already been about ohh 4 or 5 years old. Okay, where was FireFox about 4 or 5 years ago? Oh wait, 4 or 5 years we have Mozilla which sucks!!!

Basically, web standars is a trend!! Sorta like, web Blogs!! Before 2004, ppl don't know what a web blog is!! Now, 99 out a 100 person has a web blog!!

In the end of the day, use what you know best!!!! Whether its standards or not!!

This thread is useless. Obviously nobody is willing to have a serious discussion about standards, but instead post false information about crap they seem to "think" they understand.

03-06-2005, 04:03 PM
#12
derek lapp is offline derek lapp
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  Old

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
This thread is useless. Obviously nobody is willing to have a serious discussion about standards, but instead post false information about crap they seem to "think" they understand.
i've been trying to ever since you started this babbling hate rant, but everytime somone brings up a good point to discuss, you shoot it down bitching about 'false information'... if there's any reason to have a disccusion @ all it's because THERE IS FALSE INFORMATION and it must cleared up, but all you do it bitch and whine about it because they don't agree with your trend hopping.

if there's anything that's useless, it should be obvious to you by now.

03-06-2005, 04:09 PM
#13
Lord Kalthorn is offline Lord Kalthorn
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  Old

I can't completely work out whether this is or is not an Anti-Microsoft thread... you seem to be saying that W3 Standards are more important than the 'standard' you'll find in more than 90% of browsers used?

If you want the Racism Theory in it; Minorities don't force Majorities to do things. Majorities chance their minds and decide they want to do something. Broswers have lived together for years; and Internet Explorer has worked on its own without Standards for years, since Internet Explorer was created and crushed Netscape. You'll find Internet Explorer users don't mind this. People like it - as it allows Websites to be seen as they have been seen for years; how Internet Explorer renders them. It is the Minorities only who have the problem with this. Tiny Minorities. Its not even comparable to a White-Black thing - because the Minority is so insignificant. Its practically a... I don't know... I can't think of any Minority of significance that matches the situation but regardless to say they can do nothing,

Standards are all well and good but only when they are Standards. We all need standards - they are what makes Windows so brilliant, what makes CDs so brilliant, what will decide whether HDV or Blu-Ray come out better or indeed if they come out like DVDR+ and DVDR-. So long as they are standards.

Now I'm not sure what people are thinking when they think W3 is the only standard. When 90% or browsers, as I have said before, run something - is that or is that not a Standard. Would it or would it not be so much easier for the W3 to set that standard as their standard. That way they start with 90% compliance; and then they can change their setups as they want, and Microsoft can comply. It just makes it all a whole lot more complicated when people think oh no - its Microsoft - lets not do what the Majority are doing, lets do something different. Now... who make the most useless system... who lost a browser war and who are the smallest makers of Browsers in the World... let's do that they do! That will make our standard very fun.

It just doesn't make sense in the slightest.

I cannot however agree with Legendary. Standards are needed and while people don't realise Microsoft can and do make and set standards just like any Consortium can we will continue to see all manor of useless Consortiums popping up into the public eye and then out again. Plug and Play for instance - I would say the most significant help to External Additions to one's PC - is only in Windows. If it was a standard; think how useful it would be to those strange folks you find living in black houses with Hooded Jackets breaking into systems and using z instead of s and Txt instead of Text and destroying hundreds of years of the English Language. It would be of most help to Linux it has to be said - but would anybody take it as a Standard? Although of course - Microsoft wouldn't put it out as a Standard because of that very problem. The Drivers Layer of Windows in Linux would not be fun. But even if they did - Linux users wouldn't use it. Nobody would think of it as a standard if Microsoft owned it. Nobody knows why people have these problems with it... but it slows development and makes Journalists and Lawyers Fat and Happy.

I don't know about you - but the more dead Journalists and Lawyers Floating down the River to the Sea the better.

EDIT:

You'll also find nobody moans about Internet Explorer Rendering improperly - they'll moan about the sites not looking right. The Designers use Firefox - but the users don't know what Firefox is. A Level Computing - the best Computing Minds in a school of 1,400 only two people know about Firefox. Neither use it (one being myself). On a Computer Forum, aptly named Computer Forum; with over 5,000 Members - all of about 50 use Firefox. That is a Computer Forum - and while it has to be said most of the best in the Forum use Firefox, hardly 1% use it on a Forum so 'Elite'.

You consider the sheer mass of Internet Explorer users, and you moan about it 'not rendering properly'. That is merely an excuse for your insignifiant problems. Things that can be easily changed. You say there's no reason to make two versions of it just because Internet Explorer doesn't display right - don't. Make one - for Internet Explorer. Ditch the excuses for inaccurancies - everybody makes design mistakes. Its not even as if those people know the W3 Standards; or learnt from it. They learnt themselves - and they think Firefox is a better browser so they test in Firefox and moan at Internet Explorer when they finally test it in there upon completion.

Nobody designs sites upon what less than 50,000 people (generally less because you won't find so many on one site but lets go by the Statistics) use on a Site with a Million Users. You have to design for the other 920,000 who will have Internet Explorer or MSN Explorer or Opera or Safari. Be damned the other insignificant number of people for being stupid enough to use a Browser which supports a Dead Standard.

03-06-2005, 04:10 PM
#14
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  Old

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
This thread is useless. Obviously nobody is willing to have a serious discussion about standards, but instead post false information about crap they seem to "think" they understand.
Right, so basically everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong?

03-06-2005, 04:27 PM
#15
derek lapp is offline derek lapp
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  Old


Lord Kalthorn's really long post = make standards aimed at the majority
you propositions does make the most logical case, but the scenario is twisted. it's not that the standards are being built for the minority browsers, it's the opposite; they're being built to the standards.

During the netscape IE war IE won. IE has never rendered pages properly. i remember back about 4 years ago i was testing web pages in IE and netscape and they were displaying differently much like the FF vs IE we have today, so it's not like IE's engine just up and started sucking. IE was always bad, there just wasn't anything good to compare it to because netscape wasn't much better at it.

for a while no one seemed to care, then all of a sudden web standards became popular the same way using css is or the way 3d abstract crystals were popular in 2001. i don't know what triggered it but in early spring 2003 when i was introduced to the concept of web standards and validation (not tableless coding i got that about 4 months before) nobody i spoke with in the field cared about them. then about 5 months later everybody was bitching and whining about them like some UN protocol.

Mozila hopped on the trend like any good business would and designed a browser meant for developers that followed the guidelines set by the standards everyone was ranting about (not much different from this thread).
  • W3 defined the 'rules', IE didn't follow them neither did netscape
  • w3 introduces xhtml IE isn't working any better ( i feel proud that i stated using xhtml and css before it became a trend )
  • developers whine about how IE doesn't follow the rules - Mozilla capitalizes and designes more specific browser for devleopers
  • everyone puts a "get Firefox" image under their name
  • people start ranting blindly about how standards make or break the world accusing other people of not knowing what they're talking about
  • nobody listens to them because nobody likes something forced upon them
  • the earth continues to rotate and orbit the sun despite the lack of standards in so many people's work

03-06-2005, 05:06 PM
#16
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  Old

I do not totally aggree with standards. I do not see a problem with Google but according to W3.org, Google is not valid!

03-06-2005, 05:40 PM
#17
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  Old

Alright, I want to clear some things up so that hopefully this topic can continue in a respectful manner. My previous post about this thread being pointless was not so much based on people putting false information as much as people are just blinding posting based upon what they "think" they know about something. I did not post this thread so that we could all get together and just blindly rant about standards or what browser sucks / doesn't suck.This doesn't have anything to do with clients either. Do not think of this thread pertaining to designing with standards with clients. Client work, you do what they ask you too, and try to convince them that your way is right, and either way do exactly what they want you too. This whole thread on standards is to have a civil discussion about them as they pertain to the internet.

I would like to have an educated discussion as well, which is why I've posted about the false information. This is becoming an opinion based topic rather than a fact based one, and that isn't where I wanted this to go.

Picard102 Please state something pertaining to the topic instead of randomly posting statements about how I am an idiot and have no clue what I'm saying. Do not insult my intelligence, I dont insult yours.

Lord Kalthorn I think you have some interesting points to bring up, but somehow they seem to get lost in some other topics you start to rant with. I am interested in your input on this subject, especially since you are a die hard microsoft fan, but I'd like to ask you to research some of the topics you are posting about. A lot of what you post has the right direction, but mis-informed information.

derek.l Ah Derek, what do I say to you. You obviously have a good direction on what you are trying to express, but I feel as though someone's you are just posting in an upset mood on the topic. I would love nothing more for you to keep posting, but as I said to Lord Kalthorn, I think you need to post more facts rather than hearsay. Please do not take that the wrong way, but I think if you research some of things in your last post you will see what I mean.

Legendary Please dont post here again unless you intend to actually participate in the discussion.

nitefly . . . ?

With that said i'd like to post a few links. . .

http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread1558.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread1553.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread1468.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread1132.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread872.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread348.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread132.html

This forum doesnt have an extreme amount of posts about cross browser functionality, but its still growing.

My point being is that these threads are a direct result of non standards compliance.

Browser Wars
There is a lot of browser information here that is just plain wrong. But since this is not the topic for that I wont try to correct that. Lets stay on topic.

Standards
LETS TALK ABOUT THEM!

03-06-2005, 06:06 PM
#18
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  Old

Originally Posted by derek.l
IE has never rendered pages properly.
Then why on a recent project that I've worked on, utilizing strict XHTML, semantic markup (more or less) and purely CSS for the design (no XHTML hooks), did the pages render properly? With no CSS hacks?...

As for this topic, rather than you guys complaining about not being able to conduct a civilised conversaion, why don't you actually discuss? Right now, it just seems like you guys are holding a pissing contest to fight it out for who knows more about the topic.

03-06-2005, 06:23 PM
#19
Lord Kalthorn is offline Lord Kalthorn
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  Old

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
Alright, I want to clear some things up so that hopefully this topic can continue in a respectful manner. My previous post about this thread being pointless was not so much based on people putting false information as much as people are just blinding posting based upon what they "think" they know about something. I did not post this thread so that we could all get together and just blindly rant about standards or what browser sucks / doesn't suck.This doesn't have anything to do with clients either. Do not think of this thread pertaining to designing with standards with clients. Client work, you do what they ask you too, and try to convince them that your way is right, and either way do exactly what they want you too. This whole thread on standards is to have a civil discussion about them as they pertain to the internet.
If we were doing that. We'd be talking about HTTPs, SMTPs, FTPs and all manor of Transfer Protocols. You are talking about specific Internet Standards are you not? Those which pertain to Broswer Rendering. There is no way to make them purely about Standards without going through all the standards and saying what makes sense and what does not. If designers want to blame the way a Browser renders something; they have a bias to whichever.

What is strange of course in Firefox as many may know - it does not conform to a Web Technology. If I was a webdesigner - and I wanted my customers to be able to drag and drop files from their PC to the Internet in order to save and transfer, or to add as an Avatar in a complex and easy Forum System, or to have highly advantageous E-Mail Client Systems which allowed E-Mails to be saved on the Computers and so on, Files to be E-Mail, files to be shared - all manor of great Site possibilities - I would use ActiveX. There is no other way. My users would not be able to use Firefox for this would they. Rendering problems are one thing that change views. In essence - Firefox stops designers from doing a whole bunch of things that would make the Internet great - and do make MSN Explorer great. Miniclip for instance; Windows Update, the upcoming Microsoft Update. MSN Groups.

Even My MSN doesn't render properly in Firefox - its in Javascript! Completely standards compliant and Firefox can't do it.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
I would like to have an educated discussion as well, which is why I've posted about the false information. This is becoming an opinion based topic rather than a fact based one, and that isn't where I wanted this to go.
You could always point out why things are falsities instead of just saying its False. That is counter productive and if you did that on a Forum with proper debators you'd be slaughtered. Its not good debate Eticate.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
Lord Kalthorn I think you have some interesting points to bring up, but somehow they seem to get lost in some other topics you start to rant with. I am interested in your input on this subject, especially since you are a die hard microsoft fan, but I'd like to ask you to research some of the topics you are posting about. A lot of what you post has the right direction, but mis-informed information.
Well then point it out. You're never going to get your point over without any evidence, let alone without even pointing out what is misinformed. You can't just talk about Standards - this goes beyond Standards. If you want to talk about Standards go and Post a Thread with the complete W3 Standards Set in it and we can happily debate what is good and bad.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
derek.l Ah Derek, what do I say to you. You obviously have a good direction on what you are trying to express, but I feel as though someone's you are just posting in an upset mood on the topic. I would love nothing more for you to keep posting, but as I said to Lord Kalthorn, I think you need to post more facts rather than hearsay. Please do not take that the wrong way, but I think if you research some of things in your last post you will see what I mean.
Again; researching everything he says is not going to help him He obviously knows it or he wouldn't say it. You actually have to point out what you think is wrong in order to debunk it. You can't debunk an entire Post by simply saying he needs to reseach it - again you'd be slaughtered on the sort of Forums these topics and length of debates come up on.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
Legendary Please dont post here again unless you intend to actually participate in the discussion.
He did. You need to work out how to say that with eticate If you want to completely debunk somebody you're going to need to actually do it - not merely say he's silly. You might as well slap him and run away shouting I'll get my daddy on you.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
nitefly . . . ?

With that said i'd like to post a few links. . .

http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread1558.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread1553.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread1468.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread1132.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread872.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread348.html
http://www.talkfreelance.com/thread132.html

This forum doesnt have an extreme amount of posts about cross browser functionality, but its still growing.

My point being is that these threads are a direct result of non standards compliance.
The first is using Divs in Divs; its just not clean in the first place. Perhaps just a problem with PHP but either way were he designing it for his users instead of himself he would have tested it all the way through in Internet Explorer and had the problem fixed. I do however think its a PHP rendering problem in how it pumps out its code. If so... standards compliance would fix the problem but eitherway he should be using a reak Web Programming Language like ASP.NET which would pump out XHTML and would have support for his users; not himself.

The second is a thing against Standards. The user has a problem viewing in Firefox; which is apparently standards compliant... I wonder why there's a problem if Standards are so perfect and Internet Explorer so vile?

The third:

Code:
 <div id="main">
<div id="news" style="width: 450px; height: 468px">
<img src="images/news_updates.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br />
<p>NEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHNEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLNEWS N 
UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLNEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLL<br />
<br />
<br />
This is THe MockupCOnOEINTO:ISNO:CINE
</p>
<p>NEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHNEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLNEWS N 
UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLNEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLL<br />
<br />
<br />
This is THe MockupCOnOEINTO:ISNO:CINE 
</p>
<p>NEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHNEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLNEWS N 
UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLNEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLL<br />
<br />
<br />
This is THe MockupCOnOEINTO:ISNO:CINE
</p>
<img src="images/news_bot.jpg" border="0" alt="" /></div>
<div id="random">
<img src="images/random_top.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br />
<p>RANDOM!RANDOMRANODNONFON AONFON AOFNOANFOA OFNOFANONFANOA</p>
<img src="images/random_bot.jpg" border="0" alt="" /></div>
<div id="spotlight">
<img src="images/spot_top.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br />
<p>This is THe MockupCOnOEINTO:ISNO:CINE 
</p>
<p>NEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHNEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLNEWS N 
UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLNEWS N UPDATESBLAHLAHLHLAHLAHLL<br />
<br />
<br />
</p>
<img src="images/spot_bot.jpg" border="0" alt="" /></div>
</div>
I wonder where the spaces are coming from... he says sarcastically. When you put <BR /> in you expect a space. You don't expect the Tag to do nothing. Or do the standards think BR means do nothing I am just 6 charactors to fill space in this code.

I would point out the innaccuracy in number five - but I can't bring up his page for some reason.

Number Six is the same problem - I cannot view the Firefox version because the image is down however - the Opera and Internet Explorer versions look identical. Except for the whopping great advert on Opera

Number Seven is just silly. You can't blame somebody's inability to centre a Div on Internet Explorer and you can't say Standards - which are already in CSS and he couldn't sort them out - would make him any brighter.

The PNG Problem in number four is the only reasonable point in this entire list. A problem being fixed in Version 7; likely as we type.

Moving on...

03-06-2005, 06:43 PM
#20
Lord Kalthorn is offline Lord Kalthorn
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  Old

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
Browser Wars
There is a lot of browser information here that is just plain wrong. But since this is not the topic for that I wont try to correct that. Lets stay on topic.
Why don't you comment on it oh great Guru

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
Standards
LETS TALK ABOUT THEM!
Yeah. You should. Nah - we've all; been talking about standards. Whether you agree with that or not.

Originally Posted by derek.l
you propositions does make the most logical case, but the scenario is twisted. it's not that the standards are being built for the minority browsers, it's the opposite; they're being built to the standards.
It doesn't sound as good though.

Every Browser has its way of Rendering. Firefox has its own special way of Rendering - as its the only one to use the W3 Standards. They do support the new Broswers; the ones just popping up to give Internet Explorer a shot. Every other browser has its systems down and hence its hard to change. Newer systems; smaller systems - can make their's to fit.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
During the netscape IE war IE won. IE has never rendered pages properly. i remember back about 4 years ago i was testing web pages in IE and netscape and they were displaying differently much like the FF vs IE we have today, so it's not like IE's engine just up and started sucking. IE was always bad, there just wasn't anything good to compare it to because netscape wasn't much better at it.
You mean they never rendered the same. Properly is in the opinion of the user - if you really want to go into properly you'd take the most generally accepted rendering principle and you know what you'd find if you did that. You'd get that Internet Explorer renders pages properly - nobody else does and its just cause for Developers to blame their bad coding abilities on.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
for a while no one seemed to care, then all of a sudden web standards became popular the same way using css is or the way 3d abstract crystals were popular in 2001. i don't know what triggered it but in early spring 2003 when i was introduced to the concept of web standards and validation (not tableless coding i got that about 4 months before) nobody i spoke with in the field cared about them. then about 5 months later everybody was bitching and whining about them like some UN protocol.
Fads will go away. While the standards will remain; they will pop in and out all the time. When Version 7 supports the standards nobody will care about standards anymore. They will again be just something that works - yet again thanks to Microsoft just like Plug and Play. When Firefox dies, and becomes just another thing for jokes like Netscape - nobody will even remmember Standards; they will yet again be what Microsoft does right, and everybody wants to somehow beat.

Originally Posted by eric_bobbitt
Mozila hopped on the trend like any good business would and designed a browser meant for developers that followed the guidelines set by the standards everyone was ranting about (not much different from this thread).
Niche Businesses will always be such. Developers only want that they want standards because they don't like Microsoft - it is a well known problem with Developers. For some reason nobody will accept a Standard set down by Microsoft... and yet a bunch of old men who set down the W3, and a bunch of inbred twits who hack in Hooded Jackets who support the old men are brilliant and great and so much better than having Microsoft's Internet Explorer way which everybody has used for half a dozen years without fail There is something seriously up when that happens...

Originally Posted by Salathe
Then why on a recent project that I've worked on, utilizing strict XHTML, semantic markup (more or less) and purely CSS for the design (no XHTML hooks), did the pages render properly? With no CSS hacks?...
Because people don't use Strict XHTML. They like to have kack-handed code where they wonder why <BR /> is bringing up a line they don't want there.

Originally Posted by Salathe
As for this topic, rather than you guys complaining about not being able to conduct a civilised conversaion, why don't you actually discuss? Right now, it just seems like you guys are holding a pissing contest to fight it out for who knows more about the topic.
Hmmm... a pissing Contest, ey... Sign me up!

Nah; some people's debating Style in here is a little vague. I know mine is a little rusty - I haven't been on a Forum Debating like this for a few months, longer than that since I was on a Forum who's sole purpose was debating. But yeah - telling somebody to back up everything they say is just not eticate. Tell them what to back up - and tell them why you think it needs backing up.

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